PHChristy: On behalf of all of us at DogHobbyist.com, let me welcome you to our special guest chat with Mrs. Karin Ashe of Scanpoint Pointers.

PHChristy: Mrs. Ashe is a former professional handler of show dogs, a field trial judge, and an AKC conformation judge approved to judge Best in Show, Junior Showmanship, the Sporting Group, the Miscellaneous group, and a large number of herding dogs, working dogs, and hounds.

PHChristy: Scanpoint Pointers are known world-wide and produced the first dual champion Pointer in the history of the breed in the United States, as well as the only OTCH Pointer in the United States. They have produced over 130 Bench, Field and Obedience Champions. Mrs. Ashe will discuss "Form and Movement," a subject on which she is a noted authority and on which she has presented to a number of dog clubs and organizations over the years.

PHChristy: We will open the chat with comments from Mrs. Ashe, and then take your questions and comments. If you have a question or comment at any time during the chat, please type a ? or ! and then wait to be called on by PHMowgli. Please don't talk in the room during this special chat.

KarinAshe: My first statement is that if one has achieved proper form then one will achieve full function

PHMorgan: I will beposting the queue periodically so you will know that I got your names. :-)

PHChristy: I'm sorry, it's PHMorgan who will be calling on you

KarinAshe: as we all know, hopefully, if one is conformed to function then one will have proper form. For all of the breeds that are in the world and for every one of them there is a designated function

nei: !

PHMorgan: Queue is RedyreRotties, Nei.....

KarinAshe: so, each breed has a standard and that standard explains the function of the breed and the form that should be achieved to do their job, they are all slightly different ga

PHChristy: Redrye, ga with your question

RedyreRotties: How important do you feel it is for the shoulder blade and the upper arm to be of equal length in the correct shoulder?

PHMorgan: Queue is RedyreRotties, Nei...... Red is up now

RedyreRotties: sorry, for my breed it's important that they be equal in length for proper layback and forechest, and reach.

KarinAshe: This is extremely important for any breed that is expected to be on the move for extended amounts of time. If the upper arm is of the same length as the shoulder blade then the concussion that occurs when the front leg hits the ground

KarinAshe: is minimized and the dog is able to function for a longer duration

KarinAshe: ga

PHMorgan: Go ahead, Nei

RedyreRotties: ?

PHMorgan: Queue is Nei, RedyreRotties..... Anyone else?

borzoid: ?

PHMorgan: Queue is Nei, Redyre Rotties, BOrzoid. Folks, it would save time if you have your question already typed so you can post it as soon as you are callled.... :-)

SpringA_nr: ?

PHMorgan: Red - why don't you go ahead while NEi is typeing her question

RedyreRotties: I have also heard that proper shoulder construction mimimized stress and wear on the elbow joint, and may even effect radiological outcomes. Do you feel this is correct?

PHMorgan: Queue is Redyre, Nei, Borzoid, SpringA...

KarinAshe: I believe that it is of utmost importance that the musculature and tendons be of the proper length and strength to minimize wear

PHChristy: ?

PHMorgan: Go ahead and post, Nei, we're ready

nei: There seems to be a problem with some of the breeds that are seperating show and field lines. The English springer obviosly comes to mind as an example. How can you determine if these dogs move correctly for thier job? Movement is observed, but do you think it also conveys function? What are your opinions of this, and can this be changed at all?

PHMorgan: QUeue is Nei, Borzoid, SpringA, Christy...

KarinAshe: The elbows are a joint unto themselves and we need to think about how this joint is joined and whether the rotation is proper and the seating is proper. If not, then the elbow is going to wear regardless. na

KarinAshe: This is a subject near and dear to my heart. As I also bred English Springers (had the very first WD in the breed) I can relate to this subject. It is totally unnecesary to split the breed in any breed. We see that the field dogs tend to be a bit lighter in bone, substance and overall build. This is more than likely because they are worked on a regular basis, and are expected to perform at a faster pace. A dog that is built according to the standard

KarinAshe: is going to function the same way, but most of the breeders who breed for field only tend to take temperament into consideration

KarinAshe: over what the show breeders will. They want a dog that is not timid, a bit agressive toward the environment (this means willing to go into the brush and briar)

RedyreRotties: ?

KarinAshe: and won't back off a flapping bird

PHMorgan: Queue is Borzoid, SpringA, Christy, Redyre....

nei: !

PHMorgan: Go ahead and post your comment, Nei

KarinAshe: therefore we see they will sometimes perform becuase of attitude and desire, and maybe suffer at the end of the day from the lack of proper form

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Then Borzoid, you may post your question.

borzoid: My breed requires an economical ground eating stride. Front and rear angulation should be balanced. Is the that ground eating trot compromised by the more extreme angulation you see in the show ring if the angulation is balanced. I know that extreme reach in the front is not necessarily desired.

PHChristy: maybe we can each identify your breeds when we ask a question... although I know many of your names include your breed. <G>

KarinAshe: Are you speaking of a Borzoi?

borzoid: Of course - I have borzoi

KarinAshe: OK, LOL....then we are speaking of a breed that is built for speed and gallop. Very different from a breed that is bred to trot.

Rot1one_nr: Yes

borzoid: but also long distance trotting and still have speed after that

KarinAshe: The standard for the Borzoi calls for balanced angulation front to rear and of course, if the angles are not balanced the dog will not function well at the gallop it is bred to do

KarinAshe: There is a definite difference, but I have observed at lure coursing events that the well angled dog that is balanced is the one that will function the best

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: OK, SpringA, you may ask your question.

PHMorgan: Queue is SPringA, Christy.... Anyone else?

RedyreRotties: ?

kaana: can I ask a question?

PHMorgan: Queue is SpringA, Christy, Redyre, Kaana....

KarinAshe: I will also say that I have observed Borzoi that are being carted and go for miles and miles. The ones that do the best are the ones that have good angulation but are very balanced..never over angulated

KarinAshe: ok, na

SpringA_nr: Shoulder layback and front assembly are two different things. I struggle in my Springers with straight fronts and some lack forechest, but I am told they have nice shoulders. Where is the improvement to fix the bend of upper arm?

KarinAshe: If you lack forechest and you have a straight upper arm, this can be from the entire shoulder assembly being set too far forward on the rib cage. If the assembly were to placed back farther on the ribcage then you would more than likely see a better layback of upper arm and a forechest on the dog. This is a major problem today in the Springer (and in many other breeds)

KarinAshe: I have noted that the dogs that I bred that had this problem also tended to have shorter muscle structure and therefore shorter tendons

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Christy - you are up

PHChristy: I breed and show Scottish Deerhounds. I was curious about your opening comment, that if you have achieved proper form, you will have proper function. Are you saying that if your dog is conformed correctly, they will be able to do the work the breed was meant to do, or just that if they are conformed correctly they'll move correctly? Also, do you feel that a dog who is excellent at the work the breed was created for will definitely have "proper form"?

KarinAshe: OK, lots of questions within this question:)

PHChristy: I'm tricky that way <G>

PHMorgan: Queue is Christy, Redyre, Kaana - anyone else?

KarinAshe: First I will address the comment. Yes, if the dog is conformed to the standard then it should function. Of course, one must realize that it is not only anatomy that determines function, there is temperment for work and the desire to do the work that is also involved

KarinAshe: There are many dogs of various breeds that I have observed doing their work. Some are beautifully conformed and do their work well Others will excel in their work, may not be conformed totally to the standard but have a unique desire to do their work and will override their lack of conformation to attain their goal

KarinAshe: this will, however, end up with a dog that is finished working at a relatively young age as the body breaks down

PHChristy: I couldn't agree more, personally.... and I've observed the same.

KarinAshe: for the ones that are conformed properly and have the desire, I have witnessed 14, 15 and 16 year old dogs that can still go for hours in the field and not be hurting at the end of the day...this is what is desirable, in my opinion

KarinAshe: na

PHChristy: thank you!

RedyreRotties: Do you think that movement down and back is more or less than or equally as important as side gait, and why?

borzoid: ?

dkny_nr: My question concerns head carriage, and it's importance in sporting breeds to correct movement. I breed Cocker Spaniels, and often I see dogs that are shown with their heads held high. It seems to throw off movement, rather than allowing the dog to carry its head more naturally. What do you think?

PHMorgan: Queu eis Christy, Redyre, Kaana, Borzoid, THEN Dkny.... :-)

PHChristy: I am done...

KarinAshe: If a dog moves from the side in the gait that is required for the breed and does not interfere with itself on the down and back then it is a dog that I would consider...

RedyreRotties: TYVM, my view exactly. :D

KarinAshe: not all dogs should move down and back like a terrier, and I'm afraid that many look at the down and back as a totally parallel type of movement. This is not necessarily so in many of the longer legged breeds.

Alcoeur_nr: ?

KarinAshe: the legs should be parallel to one another, but in moving most long legged breeds will tend toward a center line.

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Kaana, You are up! Queue is Kaana, Borzoid, Dkny, Alcoeur.....
kaana: what is the most important thing you look for in a Norfolk Terrier beside showmanship ?

hhlabradors1_nr: ?

KarinAshe: Oh, you have hit a breed that I dearly love....had Norwich for many years!!!

nei: ?

KarinAshe: A terrier, above all, must have the temperament to do its work!!!...then you want to have a coat that is protective and the proper conformation to enable it to do its work

PHMorgan: Queue is Kaana, Dkny, Alcoeur, HHLabradors, Nei....

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Sorry - Borzoid is next - go ahead
kaana: thank youi

PHMorgan: Queue is Borzoid, Dkny, Alcoeur, HHLabradors, Nei.

borzoid: How does the 45 degree angle of shoulder layback required by many breeds affect function

KarinAshe: I have to say that there are very few breeds that can measure a true 45 degree angle. We have had many a roundtable discussion on this and have come to the conclusion that many of the standards were written with the dogs lying on the floor beside the writers and in that position would seem to have that degree of layback.

Liz77: ?

KarinAshe: However, if you have a good angle between upper arm and shoulder you have an angle that is capable of opening a bit wider which lengthens the stride

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Dkny, NOW you can post your question! :-)

PHMorgan: Queue is DKNY, Alcoeur, HHlabradors, Nei, Liz77.... Anyone else?

dkny_nr: Sorry about that. It has to do with sporting breeds and the way they are shown. In cocker spaniels and some other breeds, leads are tight and head carriage is high. How is this affecting whether you can determine correct movement?

ann_nr: ?

PHMorgan: Queue is Dkny, Alcoeur, HHLabradors, Nei, Liz77, Ann....

mtnmysts_nr: ?

KarinAshe: It is totally improper to move any sporting dog on a tight lead. First you will take away the balance of the dog. Secondly you are then restricting the front reach and movement. Third, a dog will naturally lower the head to just above the shoulders when moving at a full trot to acheive full balance

PHMorgan: Queue is Dkny, Alcoeur, HHLabradors, Nei, Liz77, Ann, Mtnmysts....

KarinAshe: therefore, if you are going to show a dog to its best and show off good, sound movement, train the dog to go on a loose lead and not sniff the floor;)

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Go ahead, Alcoeur, you're up!

Alcoeur_nr: I am seeing a huge segment of dogs in the sporting group setters especially with sickle hocks and overangulated rears. What is your assessment of the correct rear angulation. It's not just a problem for GSD's anymore!

KarinAshe: I will totally agree with you! Not only am I seeing it in the setters, but the spaniels as well. There is a balance to the front angulation that must be strived for. If one wants to breed the overangulated rears to achieve the over sloping toplines, then they will have a dog that tends toward a sickle hock as they cannot extend the hock and maintain their balance at the same time, nor are they able to move without interfering with the front movement

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: HHLabradors, you are up!

hhlabradors1_nr: What are the functional strengths and disadvantages of dog with a gait converging "toward" a center line and a dog whose gait truly "single tracks"? My breed is Labrador retrievers :-)

PHMorgan: Queue is HHLabradors, Nei, Liz77, Ann, Mtnmysts...

KarinAshe: Whether the dog is tending towards the center or single tracking will depend on the speed of the dog's gait. I cannot imagine a dog in any show ring today displaying a true single track. That movement is usually seen when a dog is truly working

KarinAshe: As it wants to have the least ground resistance and that is not available in any show ring today

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Nei, you are up, go ahead!

nei: With a lot of dogs it can look nice when they lead, to show off thier movement. (previous mentioned example, Carlee). but it seems its really not for every dog. Is it strictly individual basis for German Shorthairs, or Should this be attempted as a way to show your dogs movement well? What are some other ways to clearly show/ show off your dogs movement (specifically GSP's, but also in general)?

Rueger: ?

PHMorgan: Queue is Nei, Liz77, Ann, Mtnmysts, REuger, Morgan.... who else?

KarinAshe: The absolute best way to show off your dogs' movement is to allow the dog to move at his pace

KarinAshe: in a small ring the dog should be moving freely, without struggle

KarinAshe: if you noticed Carlee she was at full speed in the big ring, in the breed ring her movement was slower to accomodate the ring size, but always at a relaxed fluid way of moving

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: LIz77 - you areup!

Liz77: A 45 degree angle shoulder guarantees sound movement? Did I totally misunderstand, tis not posssible otherwise? What about a balanced hound? And connected to zero - as I understand, all running hounds converrge toward the center......

PHMorgan: Queue is LIz77, Ann, Mtnmysts, Reuger, Morgan.....

Liz77: ga

PHMorgan: Queue is Liz77, Ann, Mtnmysts, Reuger, Morgan - I will take 1 or 2 more questions and then we will close the queue to end chat at 10PM.

KarinAshe: no, this does not guarantee sound movement. There are so many factors involved in movement that just an angle of skeleton does not make that happen. There are also breeds that do not want to have that particular angle as it would not be conducive to their function

Liz77: Morgan my question has been sent

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Ann - go ahead

ann_nr: Let's talk about proportion. Some standards are very specific (ex: 9:10) in reference to height to length of body. Sometimes measured from different places (ie, pt of shoulder, etc). Some breeders seem to think that a longer body is "okay" so long as the dog's back is not weak. I have problems with this attitude. Give me your thoughts, plz

KarinAshe: There are specific proportions to some breeds due to the fact that they require these dogs to trot vs. gallop. ie: Huskies

PHMorgan: Queue is Ann, Mtnmysts, REuger & Morgan. The queue is now closed. Thanks.

KarinAshe: however, if the dog becomes too long, then it would definitely inhibit the strength to go for miles and miles as it would be weaker. The length of the ribcage vs. the loin is of utmost importance, but the lenth of body (slightly longer than tall) has been placed in the standard to avoid any footfall interference

KarinAshe: If the length of body increases and the back is still level, the dog still becomes unbalanced as the length of leg will be short in comparison

KarinAshe: and this will then prohibit the dog from the ground covering that he can acheive with the longer length of leg

KarinAshe: did I make myself clear??

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Mtnmysts, you're up! The queue is now closed.

mtnmysts_nr: I've been told that with breeds that tend toward single tracking, if you see correct movement as a pup they will be crossing over as an adult. Do you find this to be true and if so, what should we look for in pups?

KarinAshe: pups are always a bit chubbier and therefore I don't look at this until they start to have the leg lengthening to see where their feet fall. I have always looked at my pups at 5 weeks of age and graded the litter at that time. For my breeding, this is an ideal age to see if they are in balance unto themselves

KarinAshe: at that time, however, I also see that they are tracking more or less parallel and then I don't look at that again until they are about 18 mos. old.

KarinAshe: At that time you will see if they are moving properly for their breed (some breeds, of course, mature much earlier)

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: Reuger, go ahead! (Queue is now closed)

Rueger: My breed standard being shelties states in temperament that the dogs should be shy of strangers, yet not timid however what is allowable in the ring? I have seen dogs penalized for moving head back or moving a foot back is this timid or shy?

ann_nr: thank you, Karin

KarinAshe: I don't believe that this is timid or shy. Shy of strangers, in your standard, means standoffish, not afraid. If the dog doesn't go up and lick the judge, but doesn't back away it more than likely has the correct temperament. The Sheltie is herder and should work for the owner only....this statement in your standard refers to the fact that the dog will not leave the farm to go with a stranger, in my opinion..

KarinAshe: na

PHMorgan: This is a more general question... What kinds of positive and negative trends are you seeing in "show dogs" today regarding form and function?

PHMorgan: This is our final question, folks. Christy will be posting the transcript for those of you who would like to reread it! :-)

KarinAshe: my utmost concern is the 'racing' of dogs in the show ring. This is so totally unecessary and distracts from the true movement of the dog. The other is the stacking of animals in poses that are totally unatural for the breed....

KarinAshe: na

PHChristy: I will email the link to the transcript to the dog breeding and showdog chat reminder lists and post it on the site also

KarinAshe: thank you all for having me...I've enjoyed it:)

PHChristy: I'm afraid that's all we have time for - I'd like to thank Mrs. Ashe for being our guest, and extend a warm invitation for her to come back again... this was terrific! Thank you, and thanks to all of you for coming tonight!

Alcoeur_nr: Thank you Karin

hhlabradors1_nr: Thank you

PHChristy: Please be sure to join us tomorrow night at 10 PM ET for "Cancer and Your Pet" with Dr. Debra Eldredge and Maggie Bonham, and on Thursday evening at 9 PM ET when our guest will be Maddie's Fund president Rich Avanzino, discussing "Building a No-kill Nation."

Dogaroo: Thank you :-)

borzoid: Thank you

PHMorgan: Thanks a bunch, Karin!