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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat
Tuesday, May 24, 2005: Breeding Older Bitches

PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Breeding Older Bitches"

PHChristy: {{{Morgan}}}}

WhiteGold_nr: Evening all

RedyreRotties: Christy, I'm out of that game for a while, TG.

PHChristy: so, what's the oldest bitch you've ever bred?

RedyreRotties: 6.

PHChristy: mine was almost 6

PHChristy: oh, also please identify the breed when you give the age

PHChristy: obviously a 6 year old deerhound is "older" than a 6 year old Pom

RedyreRotties: sorry, Rottweiler. I've bred 2 bitches that were 6 when they whelped.

PHMowgli: hmm oldest was 8

RedyreRotties: no problems with one, bad problems with the other.

RedyreRotties: as far as the whelping I mean.

PHMorgan: the oldest dog I've ever bred was 5, but I KNOW of a bitch bred at 8 who ahd 13 healthy pups and was a great mom. This was NOT her first litter and more than one vet certified her fit to whelp before the breeding.

PHMowgli: and she needed an emergency c-section she ruptured

RedyreRotties: morgan it depends on the bitch for sure.

curliousCresteds: my shih tzu came from an accidental litter, mom was 11!

PHChristy: mine was a singleton pup

curliousCresteds: only had 2 pups but both were very healthy

PHMowgli: but was a great mom and she is still here doing great as a retired pet now lOL

PHChristy: I mean, she HAD a singleton

PHChristy: never went into labor

berta: Almost 8 when she whelped

PHChristy: anyone else?

PHMowgli: we had 6 pups from the 8 year old

RedyreRotties: I had 9 from one bitch, and 6 but lost 3 right off the bat with the second one.

WhiteGold_nr: My oldest was a girl that turned 8 a month after they were born. 6 very healthy pups

berta: A friend of mine did a final breeding with her GSD at almost 9 after she lost her only daughter

RedyreRotties: what breed whitegold.

WhiteGold_nr: Sammies

berta: She had two bitch pups to choose from large and healthy

PHChristy: I think that whether or not it was a first time pregnancy makes a big difference too

RedyreRotties: neither of mine was a maiden bitch.

PHChristy: statistically the risk for first pregnancy after age 6 goes up

PHMorgan: I agree - older bitches with first time pregnancies can be er.... less than stellar moms

curliousCresteds: what do you think is a good age for a first litter?

PHMowgli: mine were not maiden bitches either

PHChristy: but I don't know what age starts being associated with bad outcomes in bitches who have had puppies before

SamsSammy: Whitegold, where are you located? Berta and I both enjoy Sammys.

PHChristy: Curlious, I don't think there is any one answer, it depends on the breed

WhiteGold_nr: FL

PHMorgan: I like them to whelp for the first time between 2 and 3, but I've no objection to breeding a bitch as old as 5 for the first time

RedyreRotties: in my breed, breeding is not done until after 24 mos and OFAs, but I plan to use my girl on her first season after 24 mos if all is well with the health testing.

PHChristy: fundamentally, from a standpoint of uterine health and the bitch's health, young is good

PHChristy: second heat

RedyreRotties: christy, I want this bitch done and spayed before age 5 if possible.

SamsSammy: Ok, I'm in W.Va.

PHMorgan: Generally, litters are larger with a younger bitch as well

PHMowgli: I am with Morgan second for me could be at only 12 mnths of age

PHChristy: this doesn't always work out with concerns about genetic testing etc

PHMowgli: heat*

curliousCresteds: yea with breeds where you need the 24mo xrays and such

PHChristy: if all I was concerned about what the immediate health of the bitch and the size and health of the litter, I'd breed every bitch on her second heat

PHMorgan: I will say my most successful and easiest whelping was from a bitch just 2 years old.

PHChristy: which in a deerhound will be around age 2

PHChristy: but in a toy would be 1

PHChristy: so it makes a big difference what breed you're talking about

RedyreRotties: ARC requires an OFA hip number for breeding, so it is simply not done before OFAs in my breed.

WhiteGold_nr: My 5 yr old had a litter of 8 in February. Kicked them all out in 3 hours.

RedyreRotties: wow, white. :D

WhiteGold_nr: It was her best litter

PHChristy: hi there ode! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Breeding Older Bitches"

PHMowgli: howdy ode

ode2adream: Hello!:)

PHChristy: I just find it hard to think of a 5 year old as "old"

RedyreRotties: this pup had her first season at 7 months, in later Feb, so if she goes every six months, she will be on her 4th season and it will be in Aug 06.

curliousCresteds: i probably wont be breeding for quite some time anyways, have no bitches and dont plan on getting any bitchesany time soon

PHMorgan: I also think bitches who've whelped earlier in life have a much easier time as an "older" mom when bred later

EClatSPs: I have been told that the incidence of HD and other disorders goes up greatly with the age of the bitch. Any thoughts on that?

RedyreRotties: EClat, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

PHMorgan: I have a litter planned for this summer with a 5 year old bitch who will be 6 by the time the pups arrive..... If I miss the breeding I will not hesitate to try again

RedyreRotties: morgan, I would have no qualms about that with a healthy bitch in good condition.

WhiteGold_nr: I have heard that eclat

curliousCresteds: I dont think HD but maybe other issues, same as with people older moms tend to have babies with learning problems and stuff

PHMowgli: I have a 5 year old I bred for first time who missed I will tray again her next season

RedyreRotties: Do you mean that as a bitch ages it is a higher liklihood that she will produce dyspastic offspring?

EClatSPs: I've been told that there's preliminary evidence showing that dogs who's dam was older at the time they were whelped are more likely to suffer health issues themselves.

PHChristy: the eggs are all present at birth and age with the bitch

RedyreRotties: have not heard that one eclat. Not sure how that would be.

PHChristy: whereas males make more sperm all their fertile lives

EClatSPs: Exactly, Christy.

WhiteGold_nr: what I heard is that as we know the bitch is born with every egg that she will ever have, and those eggs continue to age.

RedyreRotties: interesting thought. More reason to get her bred young and be done with it.

PHChristy: furthermore, since the egg is formed pre-birth, things that the GRANDDAM did or had happen to her that effected her daughter, can be passed to her granddaughter or grandson, even if her daughter shows no signs of them

PHChristy: how weird is THAT?

EClatSPs: My girl was nearly three when her first was whelped and I hope to have a second litter and have her spayed by the time she's five or six.

PHChristy: but sperm, too, is effected by aging

PHChristy: from this point of view (not genetic screening etc), it's best to breed young bitches and studs

WhiteGold_nr: yes, but I don't think quite as much

EClatSPs: Yes, very true, Christy

RedyreRotties: I want to breed at 2, skip a heat, breed again, and if I'm going to do a 3rd litter it will be back to back with the 2nd one.

PHChristy: Redrye, Dr. Hutch says not to skip a heat

SamsSammy: In all my ignorance, I'll ask a question. Do any of you put a limit on the number fo breedings you allow?

PHChristy: the uterus will never be in better shape

RedyreRotties: christy, according to my breed club rules I have ot.

RedyreRotties: to.

EClatSPs: My girl could definately go back to back, but I think I need longer to recover and I want to evaluate the puppies further before chosing the next stud dog.

PHChristy: Sams, I don't think the bitch has been born who needs to be bred more than once or twice unless you didn't get the sex you wanted, or you're talking small litters, that kind of thing

PHChristy: toys or small litters, I can see more

PHChristy: it's more that I don't think any bitch is so good that she needs to have, say, 30 of her offspring in the world

PHMorgan: I usually like to give the bitch a year to recover from the litter. Her uterus might be in super shape but SHE is not - gets not enough exercise, not enough being a dog time. It think there is a LOT more to consider than just uterine health

RedyreRotties: Christy, I've always said twice. That is 2 sires and 2 chances to get somethign to move on with, and Rotties do have larger litters most of the time.

curliousCresteds: why is it any different from a stud?

RedyreRotties: But to tell you the truth, if she is making really gorgeous healthy puppies, I might breed her a 3rd time.

PHChristy: curliuos, I don't think it is

PHMorgan: I have no hesitation about breeding a good producer 2-3 times.

PHMorgan: I might want more than one combination of genes to work with down te road in my breeding program.

PHChristy: I think that is reasonable, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment

RedyreRotties: What I really want is to get breeding done with with this bitch so I can spay her an concentrate on the working side of things.

PHChristy: isn't the point of breeding to get BETTER with each generation?

RedyreRotties: with no seasons to interrupt.

PHChristy: why keep going back to this generation, why not take her good daughters and sons and go on from them?

EClatSPs: Yep, Christy.

RedyreRotties: Morgan, I would like to take her 2 or 3 different ways for sure to give me options down the road.

EClatSPs: I agree completely!

PHChristy: I can absolutely see your point, Morgan... I am not really coming down on either side of this issue, just throwing it out for discussion

RedyreRotties: hi labs

PHChristy: hi there hihope! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Breeding Older Bitches"

curliousCresteds: yea that makes sense

EClatSPs: There was someone in my breed who bred the same dog and bitch six times and still claims to not be a byb or mill.

PHMorgan: I never doubted you, Christy.... :-)

RedyreRotties: how much of an issue is shoulder construction with the breeds you all have? It is terrible in my breed, and one of the real requirements I have of a stud dog.

PHChristy: when I bred my 5 year old bitch, the reason is that I was not in a financial position to breed her before that as my family was involved in a legal situation

EClatSPs: Of course, they also owned both too!

PHChristy: I couldn't have afforded to breed her earlier

PHChristy: and it didn't work out too well, sigh

RedyreRotties: eclat, well that makes it easy. Geez.

PHMorgan: That is a good point, as well - if you've improved with a breeding, why NOT move on - but for me, as I've been combining 3 different lines for teh past 10 years, I'm still in COMBO mode and need a variety of breedings from my bitches to get consistency

PHChristy: Morgan, I think a really good breeder may have those needs.

RedyreRotties: this litter is back to square one with me. A new start.

PHMorgan: Which apparently I'm attaining now since folks are now recognizing my dogs without benefit of paperwork.... LOL

RedyreRotties: that is one reason I might like 3 litters from different sires, to have some variety to use to move on with.

PHChristy: But the truth is, most of the breeders, and I'm talking about the show/hobby breeders, the ones we'd think of as the better breeders, who often will breed a bitch because she produces nice puppies and is a good mother

RedyreRotties: congrats, morgan. :D

PHChristy: they'll breed her six times

PHChristy: but they aren't doing it for the future of their breeding programs or their breeds

RedyreRotties: omg christy. No way could I ever think of that.

EClatSPs: I think for some breeds, six isn't unreasonable, though.

PHChristy: EClat, toys absolutely

RedyreRotties: unless it is a toy and having 1 and 2 puppy litters.

PHChristy: others? I can't see it

PHChristy: right

PHChristy: it's more total numbers of pups than number of litters

EClatSPs: Many toy breeds don't have enough puppies to necessarily get what you want to go on wiht.

PHChristy: I'll try to word tha tmore carefully

PHChristy: I agree

EClatSPs: I agree!

berta: I can see picking a different stud if you don't get what you're looking for wtih the first litter

SamsSammy: Ok, another question. As I only have male dogs here, should I inquire as to how many litters a bitch has had, if I'm approached for stud service?

RedyreRotties: it's a difference between 8 or 12 puppies MAYBE and 60.

PHChristy: berta me too

EClatSPs: My bitch has eight puppies from her first litter here.

PHChristy: Sams, well I would

PHChristy: Redrye, I agree

curliousCresteds: a lady I know just had a litter of 9 cresteds last week!

EClatSPs: Another litter would be plenty to move on with from her.

berta: I can see possiblly breeding a bitch a third time

hihopelabs_nr: I just whelped a litter 4 days ago, and I have to say that the males in the litter so far are NICE puppies

PHChristy: I'm not talking about passing a law or anything, just what I think is reasonable and right

curliousCresteds: she wanted a hairless girl, and got 8 puffs and a naked boy

PHChristy: just a personal belief

RedyreRotties: congrats, hihope.

PHChristy: LOL curlious

hihopelabs_nr: Thanks Red

PHChristy: yes, hope, congrats!

PHMorgan: WEll, I have to admit, with Z, I did get what I was looking for, but I wanted something ELSE as well.... You can't get all the things you might want for your bitch from ONE stud dog each time - sometimes you have to try more than one thing

RedyreRotties: how many did you get hihope?

EClatSPs: Congrats, Hope! When will you be sharing pics?

hihopelabs_nr: Her last litter almost 2 years ago had 3 males. This litter we have three bitches and FIVE black males

PHMorgan: For me breeding isn't aways A+B=C. OFten A+B= close to c.... LOL

berta: I just cannot justify breeding a bitch to the same male after you've had one successful litter

RedyreRotties: oh I cannot wait to have puppies again, and I thought I would NEVER say that.

hihopelabs_nr: I have some pic's on my site right now

hihopelabs_nr: and just downloaded some more

RedyreRotties: bbl

hihopelabs_nr: www.geocities.com/hihopelabradors

PHChristy: you leaving Red?

hihopelabs_nr: then go to the pups link to see a couple photos

PHMorgan: I think the biggest concern in breeding an older bitch is teh whelping. And sometimes you might have lactation issues

PHMorgan: These are definitely things to consider when breeding an older bitch - you could be in for a LOT more expense and work than breeding a 2year old.

PHChristy: hope, they look like little otters

hihopelabs_nr: My back and my legs burned soooo bad from being in the puppy patch with her all night. But everyone is wonderful. Even tho one boy she chewed the cord a weensy bit too short and he bled. OMG is cared the you know what out of me

PHChristy: Morgan, yes, I think that's a real concern.... the greater likelihood of a section

PHChristy: and the risk of losing her

hihopelabs_nr: They're nice chunky babies that's what the breed is known for.. otter tails

PHChristy: and also, puppy mortality rates rise with age of the bitch

berta: oh yeh the flabadors

curliousCresteds: they are cute hope!

PHChristy: bitches over nine, the puppy mortality rate on average is something like 90 percent, it's really hideous

PHChristy: LOL berta

hihopelabs_nr: Thanks ! But of course I am so biased

PHChristy: LOL hope

EClatSPs: How Cute, Hope! I hadn't realized Labs had such wrinkly face as puppies.

hihopelabs_nr: I finally went back to work today and my son volunteered to stay home today to babysite the puppies hehe

hihopelabs_nr: Hubby calls them little gerbils when they're born

hihopelabs_nr: rotfl

curliousCresteds: haha naturally! My sister has 2 labs, she wants me to get one. Too big for me!

WhiteGold_nr: Well when you think senior at 7, it's like breeding your grandmother........:)

hihopelabs_nr: Love my labradors

PHChristy: nothing like puppies :)

EClatSPs: Puppies everywhere!

PHMorgan: 90%? Where did you find that number, Christy? I/ve never heard such high numbers - not that I'm disagreeing, just surprised!

PHMowgli: 7 is a senior then geez my dogs should be dead LOL

PHChristy: Morgan, Joni Freshman I believe

ode2adream: lol

PHChristy: she's a repro vet, internal medicine specialist

PHMorgan: SEVEN??? That's not senior. I've an 11 year old who can still do a full day of hunting

curliousCresteds: haha mow

PHMorgan: OK - wow that is HIGH

PHMorgan: Do you know what breeds were included in the study?

PHMorgan: And if it included reabsorbed pups?

WhiteGold_nr: what age in human yrs would a 7 yr old be?

PHMorgan: And if pups were offered foster moms or bottle feeding?

PHMorgan: White GOld - I think the 7 year rule isn't too accurate.

berta: Dang pup peed and pooped AGAIN I finally caught back up... I'd forgotten how annoying that can be.

berta: :-)

PHMorgan: It dependson your breed.

PHChristy: it's only 80 percent

PHMorgan: STILL

PHMorgan: WOW

PHChristy: no, but I'l find out

PHChristy: hi there oldgrouch! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Breeding Older Bitches"

PHChristy: I'll email her

PHMowgli: hi oldgrouch

PHChristy: it's just a snippet of chat I had with her back when we were on VIN, I have no citation

oldgrouch8: what are you considering an older bitch

curliousCresteds: I think more accurate is 14 forthe first 2 years, then 7 for the next 5. then much slower after that

EClatSPs: But it

WhiteGold_nr: I was told the first yr was equal to 13 yrs in human yrs, and then it was 8 yrs for the 2nd yr.

PHChristy: oldgrouch, we were kind of cutting it at around 6

EClatSPs: It's also dependent of breed.

PHChristy: oldgrouch, but we were also discussing that very issue

EClatSPs: Larger breeds age much faster.

PHChristy: I find it hard to think of a five year old as "old" no matter what breed

oldgrouch8: in my experience, it is an individual trait

PHChristy: but for a first litter I would like them to be young if that works out with other factors, age 2

PHMowgli: I myself think 10 is old younger than that is young

PHChristy: which would be on her second heat in my breed

berta: To me if they are past 7 it's a higher risk

curliousCresteds: my border collie has been "old" since she was 4! lazy dog

PHChristy: and if she's been bred before

PHChristy: LOL curlious

WhiteGold_nr: We can't OFA until they are 2 yrs old and I always like to finish their championship before I breed.

oldgrouch8: I found that if they have a life expectancy due to condition, health breed, lines etc, a good retirement age from breeding is apx 2 years from expectation

PHMowgli: but for breeding I try to use 7 as my cutoff

berta: What did you say Mow?? 10 is young and old?

PHMorgan: I like them finished too but it won't stop me if I have a breeding planned. I just hate the thought of having to recondition a bitch on a TIMEFRAME after a litte r- altho usually I'm pretty good about getting them back into shape and mine don't get too flabby with a litter anyhow

PHMowgli: berta anything younger than 10 is not old

PHChristy: Trav! Good to see you! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Breeding Older Bitches"

ode2adream: I've a question...

oldgrouch8: mowgli, it depends on breed and condition

PHChristy: hello wikket! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Breeding Older Bitches"

oldgrouch8: many giant schnuazers never see 10

berta: Oh...... agree about that unless it's about breeding'

curliousCresteds: i showed a greyhound bitch 2 weeks ago, who had just had a litter of puppies 8 weeks before, you couldnt even tell (other than her coat wasnt the greatest, but her figure was awesome!)

PHMowgli: hi wikket

Wikket_JDsmommy: hi everyone

curliousCresteds: and she had 9 puppies

berta: Trav LTNS

PHChristy: mine don't get out of condition either

PHChristy: maybe it's a sighthound thing

PHMowgli: right berta then I specified 7 is cutoff for breeding in my opinion

curliousCresteds: could be

EClatSPs: But aren't they still full of milk?

ode2adream: Has anyone heard of penn hip checks? are they as reliable as OFA?

travlinpom: hey all

EClatSPs: My bitch is still nursing and the puppies are nine weeks.

PHChristy: EClat, yes, depending on how long since whelping

WhiteGold_nr: the database is so small yet in Penn Hip

EClatSPs: I've heard good and bad things about PennHip.

EClatSPs: I don't think I'd be comfortable with doing it.

oldgrouch8: I found when I developed a data base, that a single ofa number is meaningless

PHMorgan: Yeah - that's the biggie for me -my bitches nurse until er... the pups go HOME, so they are usually 3 months old before my bitch is really dried up.... OPther than the boob thing, my girls usually look pretty good after a litter (pointers got no hair so they don't look like they blew coat the same way other breeds do)

PHChristy: I think PennHip has some advantages over OFA, but right now I consider OFA the gold standard

oldgrouch8: you need about 5 generations of nothing but for it to have any genitic meaning

PHChristy: the more affected individuals in a pedigree, the higher the incidence in a given litter

WhiteGold_nr: I also don't like the idea that the dog has to be so deep under anethesia and they actually subluxate the hips to check laxity

Wikket_JDsmommy: hey guys i need help

ode2adream: *nodnod* was just curious :)

PHChristy: Wikket, what can we do for you

EClatSPs: My girl looks fabulous right now other than the boob thing, Morgan.

PHChristy: or so says George Wills in Genetics of the Dog

Wikket_JDsmommy: i have a 11 month old boxer and a 12 week old corgi shepherd mix

EClatSPs: Exactly my concerns, whitegold.

PHChristy: we don't have hip dysplasia in my breed, but frankly, I wish we had SOMETHING we could test for

PHChristy: Wikket, ok

Wikket_JDsmommy: the boxer is potty trained but i cant seem to get the baby trained

curliousCresteds: 12 weeks is pretty young to be totally trained

PHChristy: Wikket, you can't have reliable training in a puppy that young.

PHChristy: you're just getting started :)

Wikket_JDsmommy: plus the puppy is more aggresive than my boxer

WhiteGold_nr: I have heard of puppies being messed up while doing a PennHip. The ligaments got stretched too much

travlinpom: Wikket, give him some time, he's too young

Wikket_JDsmommy: my other puppy who died yesterday was potty trained

PHChristy: aggressive? or lively, active, nippy?

Wikket_JDsmommy: hes aggressive

EClatSPs: All of the Corgis I've ever known have been very dominant dogs.

EClatSPs: They also tend to be rather sharp.

PHChristy: Wikket, define "aggressive"

travlinpom: Wikket, what happened to the other puppy?

Wikket_JDsmommy: ill give them both a bone to chew on and the puppy will eat his and snatch JDs away from him

PHChristy: that is not aggressiveness

Wikket_JDsmommy: he jsut feel asleep and died in his corner

EClatSPs: I think that's a dominance issue, not aggression.

Wikket_JDsmommy: we got him from the pund and he was never socialized so we were workin on that

EClatSPs: Did you have a necropsy done?

Wikket_JDsmommy: a what

WhiteGold_nr: Most working breeds pups are VERY mouthy, (biting fingers and toes), but they outgrow it

PHChristy: Wikket, it's your current puppy who was never socialized?

EClatSPs: Necropsy...autopsy.

curliousCresteds: like an autopsy to find outwhy the puppy died

Wikket_JDsmommy: no that the one who died yesterday was the one who wasnt socialized

PHMorgan: OOps - threw MYSELF outa the room

PHChristy: your puppy doesn't sound aggressive to me, he sounds normal but with a different temperament than you're used to

berta: Have a nice trip Morgan?

PHMorgan: LOL

PHMowgli: he he morgan

Wikket_JDsmommy: nope we cant afford one

Wikket_JDsmommy: but we know he didnt have ne thing

EClatSPs: It would be very beneficial to all to know why he died.

PHChristy: obviously he did or he wouldn't have died

Wikket_JDsmommy: he was checked by the vet on thursday

PHMorgan: U, Wikeet - the adult's behavior towards your baby might change as he gets older. Often adult dogs are indulgent towards baby pups and don't begin to discipline them for being "RUDE" until they are bit older

curliousCresteds: he wouldnt have died if he didnt have anything

EClatSPs: Did you contact the rescue you got him from? They might be willing to pay for it.

Wikket_JDsmommy: we think he had under developed kidneys

Wikket_JDsmommy: he was alwasy thristy and really didnt want to eat

PHMorgan: THat's really too bad, Wikket. Is the other puppy related?

travlinpom: Wikket, I would be concerned about your other puppy after losing one like that

PHMorgan: They are littermates?

Wikket_JDsmommy: the vet told me that that was normal because he was kinda scared of us still

berta: Basically the tendency to require C section incresases

EClatSPs: Me, too!

berta: The litter count decreases

Wikket_JDsmommy: no 2 two breeds

PHChristy: Folks, we are definitely getting off topic here... sorry about that!

PHMowgli: right berta the older the bitch the more risk

Wikket_JDsmommy: Wikket is the puppy now

berta: and the bitches recovery time is slower than it was when she was younger

PHChristy: Wikket, let me give you a link to our behavior forum, there is a trainer there who can talk to you about these issues, let me get the link for you

PHMorgan: Well, Wikket, I'd give him some time to grow up - he will learn

Wikket_JDsmommy: i hope so

PHMowgli: ruputres do to weakened uterus being scarred too

Wikket_JDsmommy: ive never had this problem before with any dog

PHChristy: Wikket, here is the link: http://forums.doghobbyist.com/forum.php?catid=22

PHMorgan: I think there is also a BIG difference between an experienced older mother and a first-time "older" mother

PHChristy: we need to get back to our topic chat now

berta: The worst thing with Kyr was trying to get her weight back to normal

PHChristy: we also have a dog training chat every Friday at 10 PM Easter in this room

EClatSPs: Easter?

EClatSPs:

PHMorgan: LOL

PHMowgli: berta I am still struggling with mokeys weight issues since litter she is a tad overweight since her section

PHChristy: Wikket, please ask on the training forum, they will help you there. And good luck to you!

curliousCresteds: do we get free chocolate in that chat?

PHMorgan: Yeah, Berta - how many of you find that once she's had a litter, your poor momdog is doomed to 1/2 rations for life????

PHChristy: LOL curlious

PHMorgan: Free chocolate in EVERY chat

berta: She is still a couple pounds abover her "fit" weight'

EClatSPs: Actually, I had to put weight back on my girl.

PHMorgan: :::handling around the brownies:::

PHChristy: I'll tell ya, Rosie did blow up after she was spayed but after about a year, fortunately it went back down

EClatSPs: Cool! Send some my way!

WhiteGold_nr: I have never had a weight problem with my dogs

PHMorgan: Idid with Z"s first litter but there were 10 - she was sucked DRY

PHChristy: she was in a good weight after her litter

berta: I didn't have that problem with Muirgen but Kyr inhaled everything

PHChristy: I've seen a few fat deerhounds, but it's not common

PHMorgan: AND at 4 weeks she took on 3 more pups from my other bitch who said this nursing thing was painful (she'd been injured) and she nursed 13 pups for 5 more weeks

PHChristy: oh my, Morgan!

PHMorgan: Z is now a HOOVER

WhiteGold_nr: I fed my last Mom 9 cups a day to keep in milk for 8 pups

ode2adream: do any of you supliment your older bitchs when she's pregnant or after she's whelped?

PHMorgan: Christy - she was so patient about it - I can't tell you the number of times they pulled her DOWN while nursing

berta: well I feed raw so they come through the whelping and lactating in very good condition]

PHMowgli: mokey ate enough to feed a platoon of shelties

WhiteGold_nr: never before

berta: Maybe TOO good

PHMorgan: I do all mine - natural calcium things like yogurt and cheese, plus eggs

travlinpom: ode, i nver supplement during pregnancy, but give alot of "extras" after whelp

PHMorgan: at 4 weeks (just before we introduced food to the pups) Z was eating 24 cups of dogfood a day. No lie - 3 2-quart bowls a day

berta: Oh eggs for sure...... great protein source

PHMowgli: wow morgan

WhiteGold_nr: I have heard from my reprp vet that giving extra calcium "before" the litter is born, can lead to bad eclampsia problems afterwards

curliousCresteds: wow thats enough to feed my dog fro 3 weeks!

PHMowgli: 3 2 qt bowls will feed 18 shelties for a day LOL

berta: Those sporting dogs BURN calories

berta: You oughta know Mow

ode2adream: lol

travlinpom: Poms SLEEEP in 2 qt bowls!!!

berta: OMG !!!! YOU HAVE A SHELTIE !

PHChristy: LOL

PHMowgli: ha ha berta you just noticed LOL

berta: I'm pup sitting

PHMorgan: Hang on - Gundog group is on Crufts... BRB

curliousCresteds: i had a sheltie this weekend, 4yo unneutered male who did NOT like my crested boy one bit

berta: I'm missing half the conversations

PHMowgli: oh well splains it LOL

PHChristy: hi again Wikket, http://forums.doghobbyist.com/forum.php?catid=22

PHChristy: ooops sorry!

PHChristy: that was supposed to be my greeting

curliousCresteds: haha

PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Breeding Older Bitches"

PHMowgli: nice greeting christy LOL

Wikket_JDsmommy: thanks

PHChristy: a simple copy and paste error, move on folks, nothing to see here

Wikket_JDsmommy: lol

curliousCresteds: i do it all the time, no worries

berta: Finger cramp

PHChristy: so, back to breeding our old girls

PHMowgli: anyone want a blue brat? his testicles are mising now but he really likes old girls LOL t keep on topic

PHChristy: what kind of moms are they?

PHChristy: any age-related problems?

ode2adream: rofl

PHChristy: someone mentioned lactation problems

PHMowgli: so far the old girls I bred were the best moms ever

berta: Not had a problem with older moms

curliousCresteds: Mow if hes well behaved i'll trade you for my aunts sheltie she just got, hes a nutter

PHMowgli: my only problem with them was getting them to wean

PHChristy: mine took 5 days to get milk in and to start taking care of him, but I think that was related to the fact that she never went into labor, nto her age

PHMowgli: crested well behaved is not what I would call Merlin LOL

berta: oh yes, they loooove their babies

PHChristy: and after day 5, she was a GREAT mom

PHChristy: the best

PHChristy: but those first five days were hell

PHMowgli: I only had 1 day no milk

PHChristy: but that was my only experience with a singleton puppy and I think that was really the relevent issue, not her age

PHMowgli: but could not let pups cry from hunger so of course I bottle fed that 1 day

PHMorgan: I have had 2 singleton litters and a litter of 2 - none of the 3 bitches had any lactation issues.

curliousCresteds: if oyu have problems with breeding a bitch the first time (any age) will you try again?

berta: Put the little pooper in her crate......... I think she's sleeping ........ does that mean she's be up all nite?

PHMorgan: Berat - you could always give her a bath... hehehe

PHMowgli: yeah berta

PHMorgan: THat wakes them up

EClatSPs: How old is she, berta?

PHMowgli: crested I will try 3 times if under age 5

curliousCresteds: berta arent all puppies up all night regardless?

PHMorgan: Curlious - I will usually try again -b ut it does depend on the issue

travlinpom: Cresteds, depends on the problem, but probably would breed again

berta: I've had two singleton litters as well mother and her singleton daughter .. both of them first litters or lits

PHMowgli: I am assuming no problems just a miss ontiming

PHChristy: hi there wyndrush! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Breeding Older Bitches"

berta: I'm not sure......... proablay about 12 or 14 weeks

PHChristy: we need a topic for next week, any suggestions?

PHMowgli: ok everyone gonna take blue brat out so I can be back by showdog time brb

wyndrushlabs: Hi , thank you for the welcome

curliousCresteds: The bitch we bred my boy to, her first litter died at a week old (7 pups) second litter was stillborn. This is her last chance and had 3 boys (typical when you want a girl right?)

EClatSPs: My babies are good about sleeping through the night. Although that might change tonight as it will be their first night crated all night.

berta: Oops spoke too soon she's whining

ode2adream: what about care for newborn pups? or already done?

PHMorgan: All mine sleep at night usually

PHMorgan: Altho they do have to snivel first

PHMorgan: NOt for quite a while, Ode -

travlinpom: be back later

berta: She slept til 5:30 the first nite and 5:45 the second nite

ode2adream: AI experiances? is it better or worse then natural breeding?

ode2adream: *is just tossing out some ideas* *lol*

PHChristy: we have talked about AI

curliousCresteds: we sort of covered that a few weeks ago with how far is too far

PHChristy: but I'm looking at the past topics to see how we focused on it specifically

ode2adream: k

PHChristy: we did a series of topics on caring for pups at different ages from birth on

PHChristy: it was quite good really

berta: I think better........... for one reason. I tried several times to breed Kyrie with no results. With surgical implant Dr Hutch could visually check for problems prior to the implant.

curliousCresteds: how about combine breeding and showdog chat to cover showing in bred-by?

ode2adream: great:)

PHChristy: all our past topics are at http://www.doghobbyist.com/DogBreeding.html

PHMowgli: Back

curliousCresteds: wb mow

PHChristy: Hello, HA! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!

HA_nr: hello everyone

PHChristy: hmmmmm well, Morgan, any ideas for next week's topic?

PHChristy: curlious, we just did a sort of combo topic last week when we talked about handers' influence on our breeding decisions. I think that' sa good topic but maybe not this soon

curliousCresteds: true

PHMowgli: Christy how about whelping boxes and or kennel setups

PHChristy: yes, that's a good one

PHChristy: Morgan, are you frozen?

wyndrushlabs: does anyone have any ideas about breeding a bitch that has pyo

curliousCresteds: what is pyo?

PHChristy: wynd, that HAS pyo? or that HAD pyo?

wyndrushlabs: had

PHChristy: curlious, pyometritis=uterine infection

PHChristy: wyndrush, how was it treated?

wyndrushlabs: yes

curliousCresteds: ah ok thanks

PHMowgli: wyndrush well my understainding is you spay them or breed them next season after it is cleared up

PHMorgan: I like the kennel set-up topic - have we done that?

PHChristy: no, how was it treated?

wyndrushlabs: she was taken to a repo specialist

PHChristy: Morgan, not really... we did one on "Confinement"

wyndrushlabs: has been bred twice since and didnt take

PHMowgli: Morgan we did a dream kennel one with just a handful of people too but that was dreaming not realistic

wyndrushlabs: I told my friend I will use my stud dog one more time and see

PHMorgan: I say we go for whelping set-ups -w e always get some great ideas from each other on those types of topics

PHChristy: wyndrush, I suspect she has scarring,cysts, or a low level infection/inflammation. I'd head back to the repro vet if you really want to get pups from her

PHChristy: Hello wolfhound! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!

PHChristy: I will do that, Morgan

PHMorgan: Yeah - I think the words Raoul were used extensively in the dream kennel topic

PHChristy: LOL Morgan

PHMowgli: yeah Morgan LOL

PHChristy: yes, the kennel boy

wyndrushlabs: Autumn Davidson at UC Davis has gone over her with a fine tooth comb

PHMowgli: he was our kennel help

ode2adream: lol

curliousCresteds: haha did he scrub kennels in a thong?

wyndrushlabs: she has been back to repo vet also

PHChristy: wyndrush, can Autumn do a surgical AI and get a look at her uterus?

wyndrushlabs: she doesnt sugest that

PHMowgli: crested how did you know?

PHMorgan: Curlious - I think we each had our own costumre for him

wyndrushlabs: she just had thyroid checked

PHChristy: did she say why?

wyndrushlabs: just try again

wyndrushlabs: no

PHChristy: that doesn't sound like Autumn

PHChristy: I'm really surprised

PHChristy: they always wnat to get a look at the uterus

wyndrushlabs: i have been getting emails from Elaine from Autumn and no mention as to why

PHChristy: either to scope it or surgically

PHMorgan: OK - I'm going to head out for tonight. Scarlett is in season and I promised the boys some couch time (not that I"ll be able to put up with them for long.... Tucker needs a tranquilizer..... sigh)

wyndrushlabs: I would think so too

PHChristy: night, Morgan!

wyndrushlabs: the first time after they did that and nothing

PHMowgli: nite MOrgan

curliousCresteds: bye morgan!

wyndrushlabs: then an AI , nothing

PHChristy: wyndrush, I'm not really sure what to say, I'm sure you know that Autumn is one of the top repro vets in the world

PHChristy: you coudln't be in better hands

PHMorgan: Anyone wnat a male pointer for another 10 days or so??

ode2adream: night morgan:)

PHChristy: but I'm surprised that she just wants you to try again

PHMorgan: See ya'll next week

PHChristy: without doing anything more

PHMowgli: not e Morgan

wyndrushlabs: so I told her will try, she needs one major to finish so she doesnt want to spay her just yet

wyndrushlabs: me too

PHChristy: how does she expect to pay for her Mercedes?

wyndrushlabs: she doesnt want to put anymore money into her

PHChristy: I may faint

wyndrushlabs: i told her i wont charge her unless it takes

PHChristy: oh you mean the bitch's owner? not Autumn?

PHChristy: I thought it was YOUR bitch

curliousCresteds: oh that makes more sense lmao

PHMowgli: me too christy

wyndrushlabs: Autumn just had to spay a bitch like this but she said wont hurt to try more

wyndrushlabs: no

wyndrushlabs: advice from autumn now

wyndrushlabs: after the repo vet

PHChristy: ok folks, it's time for Showdog Chat ... let me throw the room keys to MOwgli and head out to eat my dinner... thank you all for coming tonight and I'll see you next week!

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