PHMorgan: Often it will be a few minutes before puppy is really active - remember he's been squashed in the birth canal for a while
PHMorgan: yes, complaining is GREAT
PHMorgan: But we do want to make sure air is getting in
PHChristy: screaming, yelling in outrage... all good signs
PHChristy: poor pap!
PHMorgan: If the puppy sounds SNOTTY, that can mean that he has some fluids in his throat or mouth.... It happens a lot since puppy was surrounded by fluids, but we want to get those clear of his airway
PHMorgan: There are a few ways to do this. Keep in mind that while momdog will be busy with the placenta and/or the umbilical cord, or even cleaning HERSELF, she may NOT appreciate you handling her baby - so if necessary, take puppy and leave the room
PHMorgan: So... To clear the airway, there are a few things you can do:
PHMorgan: 1) Hold puppy head down lying on one hand and rub the back and shoulders VIGOROUSLY with the other hand (I use a towel and dry off the pup at the same time).
PHMorgan: VIGOROUSLY is pretty important - you want to stimulate the puppy as much as possible. You could equate the rubbing to the kind of motion you might use to scratch a particularly bad itch - pretty firm and brisk
PHMorgan: 2) You can "sling" the puppy. This means you hold the puppy FIRMLY between both hands, head down, with your fingers locked behind his head - the idea being to have a firm grip that supports the neck. Then SLING the puppy firmly downwards to clear the fluids from his airway
PHMorgan: You want a pretty good grip on the puppy - we won't want him to go flying
PHMorgan: I have also put MY mouth over the puppy's mouth and nose and tried to suck any fluids from his nose and mouth. Tastes kinda oogy, but not as bad as you might think.... LOL
PHChristy: only as a last resort
PHMorgan: Usually these things will help
PHMorgan: yeah, last resort - puppy goo isn't too nice
PHChristy: the glamour of dog breeding!
PHChristy: it never ends
PHMorgan: Yeah - it's messy and smelly and sticky and it just keeps getting worse... LOL
PHMorgan: But there IS puppy breath!
PHMorgan: Meanwhile, if puppy is breathing ok momdog wil be pretty busy licking and cleaning him. Usually she will eat the placentas. We talked about this before - whatever momdog wants I will usually permit. Too many placentas will give momdog diarrhea, but I don't consider this a big issue.
PHMorgan: Momdog will also often chew the umbilical cord right down to a very short piece. She often will worry at the end until she's happy with its length. Keep a close eye on this so she doesn't accidentally chew on the puppy itself, but usually she knows what her job is
PHMorgan: There is NO rush to cut the umbilical cord. It's not hurting anything being attached to the puppy.
PHMorgan: If momdog hasn't taken care of it after 5-10 minutes, you can usually TEAR it yourself. It will bleed less if you crush it in your fingers and break it yourself, rather than cutting it
PHMorgan: GA Christy
PHMorgan: (hi, Mow)
PHChristy: I want to mention that when I had my first litter, I was TERRIFIED at how rowdy mom got when doing this.... those puppies really got bounced around. But my mentor assured me that was normal and beneficial, it helps stimulate the puppies and helps them breathe and do well.
PHChristy: If my mentor had not been there I'd have thought mama dog was dangerous to her pups
PHMorgan: Yes, I have seen that many times as well - good point. Momdog will often bounce the pups around quite a bit while chewing on the cord
PHMorgan: I think I would only interfere if puppy is more than a few inches off the ground - a bit of jostling is GREAT for puppy
PHMorgan: Now mom will usually do a lot of licking and cleaning
PHMorgan: Once she begins to settle down (she will usually rest for a while after each pup) you should take a moment to write down the following information in your records:
PHMorgan: 1) time of birth
PHMorgan: 2) sex of puppy - girls have equipment right between the legs, boys up near the umbilical cord - don't mistake the cord for boy's equipment)
PHMorgan: 3) Weight of puppy - this is VERY important - the MOST important information you have the first few weeks of puppy's life is HOW much he weights and how he is gaining. DO NOT neglect this
PHMorgan: 4) Any markings or telltale information that might distinguish this puppy from his littermates
PHMorgan: if you have pups of all one color or similiar - it's a good idea to mark with ribbon or other identification - Anyone got suggestions for this? I have pointers so I can identify them all by using digital photos or polaroids and attaching them to my records
PHMorgan: GA< MOw
PHMowgli: ok I cannot remember how soon is a pup supposed to double its birth weight?
PHMorgan: Mine generally do in the first week to 10 days
PHMowgli: I was asked that last night and could not remember
PHMowgli: mine do by three days but I have pig dogs LOL
PHChristy: My understanding is that AKC doesn't accept photos as identification, they want collars. Is that wrong?
PHMorgan: Meanwhile, the whelping box might be rather messy and damp from the delivery - you might take a few minutes to change papers if momdog is OK with this - helps keep pups and momdog dry and warm
PHChristy: I use collars and notes
PHMorgan: I don't know - I NEVER use collars - ALL my momdogs would remove them
PHMorgan: But my dogs are MARKED
PHMorgan: clearly marked
PHChristy: it may be an "old breeder's tale" LOL
PHMorgan: And I do take notes and describe all the markings
PHMowgli: I can go by color
PHMorgan: It took me 2 weeks to be able to identify my litter of 10 without checking my notes.... LOLOL
PHMorgan: They were ALL orange & white but with different patches
PHMorgan: OK - let's open up for discussion and questions - I'm sure there are more fine points we can talk about....
PHMorgan: One thing I will add is that I keep both a heat lamp in one corner and a heating pad in my box with momdog and babies
PHChristy: I'd like to discuss temperature
PHChristy: LOL GMTA
PHMorgan: I like my box to be about 80 degrees
PHChristy: I think one big challenge is keeping it cool enough for mom and warm enough for the puppies
PHMorgan: Some books recommend a higher temperature
PHMowgli: morgan on the markings do your dogs have their markings change as they age like in my breed you know spots get smaller or larger?
PHMorgan: But momdog and pups seem happy with 80 degrees
VAL911K9: not with the toys - but with bigger breeds at what age do you feel comfortable micro-chipping?
PHMorgan: By putting the heat lamp in a corner, momdog can lie on the other side of the box and escape it - pups are warm when over with her, and can keep warm on the pad and under the lamp when NOT with her or when she is not there (those 2 second potty breaks she must be DRAGGED out for..l.)
PHMorgan: I don't do it until about 3 months - but I don't do it before they go home
PHMorgan: I'm too chicken to stick babies with that huge needle - altho I do vaccinate myself
PHMowgli: on lamps I don't use them I do not feel they are safe
PHMorgan: Mow - the spots on my dogs get larger - and ticking will show up over time
PHChristy: we can also check our puppies' rectal temperature... Normal for a neonate is 97-99 degrees. If they are over 100 they are way too hot and if less than 97 they are dangerously cold
PHMowgli: val I microchip at 16 weeks
PHMorgan: I have never had a problem with heat lamps -but my box is 24" high and I clamp the lamp onto the side
PHMorgan: One thing I also want to add
PHMorgan: When momdog has one (or SOME) pups and is ready to deliver MORE, I will try to move the pups away from her rear end so as to be out of the way. Usually MY momdogs will not permit me to take them out of the box, but I will pile them near her head, usually on the heating pad, while she is delivering and cleaning the next puppy
PHMorgan: Again, it's important to let momdog have her way as much as possible
PHChristy: the thing I dislike about the lamps is how bright they are
PHMorgan: Let's also take a minute to talk about some of the distressing things we've seen momdog do and what we do about them....
PHChristy: I prefer to use heating pads as they are warm without any light
PHMowgli: my girls would pay me to take theirs and keep them if I would LOL
PHMorgan: I"ve had momdogs who felt it was necessary to carry their pups around the box - as if they aren't happy with the box and are looking for a better place
PHMowgli: that is what I ues christy a whelping pad
PHMorgan: I will FIRMLY tell her to lie down and stay
PHMowgli: morgan I have seen bitches canibalize pups before too
PHMorgan: Taking away the puppy will generally increase her anxiety. I have a bed in my whelping room and I make SURE she cannot get under there - often momdog will try to HIDE. Sometimes throwing a blanket over momdog's box will help - but you have to take away the heat lamp if you do this
PHMorgan: THAT I have never seen. If Momdog is HURTING the pups, you will need to do 2 things
PHMowgli: especially after a c-section it is important to give constant guard after a section over mom with her pups
PHMorgan: 1) get her AWAY from the pups
PHMorgan: 2) get her to the vet - often she is ill
PHMorgan: Take her temperature
PHChristy: I have never seen it either
PHMorgan: Then get thee to the vet ASAP and might as well take the pups for an exam as well
PHMorgan: I have only heard of it on two occasions
PHMowgli: it happened at vets with a lab bitch who just had a c-section when I was there with my last section I freaked
PHMorgan: The first was when OTHER household dogs were permitted access to the whelpoing room. Momdog panicked and ate her pups
PHMorgan: Keep momdog and her babies COMPLETELY sequestered from your other dogs and too many visitors
weremon13_nr: hey all
PHMorgan: and the second was a bitch who had eclampsia - she was in dire straights and after treatment was a wonderful mother
PHMorgan: Anesthesia can do weird things to momdog - it's important to watch momdog for at least 48 hours after a section
PHMorgan: GA Pap
PHMowgli: yes morgan and all 3 of the known incidences occured when the bitch was under extreme stress
PHChristy: Hi Pom and Weremom! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our Topic Tonight is: Immediate Post Whelping Care
dl_pap: well now i'm truely terrified
PHChristy: LOL pap, I know what you mean
PHMorgan: IT can be very scary
travlinpom_nr: Hey all
PHMowgli: morgan did you touch on eclampsia?
PHMorgan: That's why it's so important to have help when whelping - a mentor or someone with experience
PHMorgan: Not really - let's talk about it...
PHMorgan: Eclampsia is a dangerous lack of calcium in momdog
PHMorgan: It's most common in toy breeds but can occur in any dog
PHMowgli: cause when whitney has eclampsia she just started pacing and then her legs got stiff that was the signs of the oncoming attak
PHMorgan: Signs are panting, general stress, elevated temperature and later, muscle spasms and stiff-leggedness.
PHMorgan: You will need to get Momdog to the vet ASAP
PHChristy: Hi there Rebel! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our Topic Tonight is: Immediate Post Whelping Care
VAL911K9: Morgan - how long after whelping did this start?
PHMorgan: Sometimes she can nurse her litter afterward, but sometimes not
PHMowgli: val 2nd week
PHMorgan: It can start right away or as far as 5 weeks in
PHMorgan: Usually if momdog is eating well it's not a problem, but again, toy dogs are at greater risk
PHMorgan: GA< Pap
dl_pap: but you shouldn't supplement?
PHMorgan: My vet and much of the material I have read doesn't recommend it
PHMowgli: and dogs who may have thyroids problems that are not detected yet can be susceptible also Morgan
dl_pap: anyway to prevent it?
PHMorgan: But I DO recommend a diet high in calcium FOODs - cottage cheese, goat's milk, ice cream - whateer you can get momdog to eat. This way, she can use what she needs and excrete what she doesn't
PHMorgan: I don't know a lot about it as I've not had a problme
PHMorgan: I just know the signs
PHMowgli: cream cheese is great way to get dogs eating too as they all love it
PHMorgan: Good one, Mow!
travlinpom_nr: My vet strongly recommends NOT supplementing before whelp, but adding cottage cheese after whelping
PHChristy: and you can have the bitch's calcium levels checked... this won't tell you anything about dietary intake but it will help you identify some metabolic disorders that might interfere with proper calcium uptake
VAL911K9: I have used yogurt mixed with honey too
PHChristy: Hi whpptwmn! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our Topic Tonight is: Immediate Post Whelping Care
PHMorgan: ANother important thing is to take momdog's temperature 2X a day the first week. This way you will know at the first signs of any uterine or mammary infection
PHMorgan: Call the vet IMMEDIATELY if her temp is 102 or higher
PHMowgli: also the discharge
PHMorgan: Yes - it's very normal for momdog to have a discharge for as much as a few weeks after delivery - the larger the litter the greater the discharge
dl_pap: are food suppliments (i.e - creamcheese...) considered ok before?
PHMorgan: THis discharge can be reddish, greenish, or blackish
PHMorgan: It should not be BRIGHT RED and COPIOUS. IT should not be yellow, white or SMELLY - infection has a VERY foul smell
PHMowgli: pap my girls get cottage cheese last week prior to whelping and yogurt once a week htrough life
PHMorgan: I often give food supplements before, Pap
PHMorgan: Particularly the last 10-14 days
dl_pap: my girl doesn't like anything
PHMorgan: YOu will have this discharge whether the bitch delivers naturally or via section.
PHMowgli: hi fas
FasdogKira: Hi all
PHChristy: Hello FasdogKira! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our Topic Tonight is: Immediate Post Whelping Care
PHMorgan: A poor eater is not always a good candidate for breeding
PHMowgli: pap did you try cream cheese and yogurt mixed with honey ?
FasdogKira: Hi Christy
PHMorgan: She needs to be healthy to deliver pups on her own and take care of them
dl_pap: i'll try creamcheese
dl_pap: have tried yogert
PHMorgan: If momdog doesn't eat enouhg, her pups will be small and weak, and her milk will be insufficient and you will end up supplementing and possibly hand-raising the pups and risk losing the weaker ones
PHMowgli: peanut butter or cream cheese on a cracker is my trick to getting my brats to take pills LOL
VAL911K9: I have also found with picky eaters sometimes a little bit of Parmasean cheese helps - but not much as high in sodium
dl_pap: she usually eats ok
dl_pap: just getting too big now i think
PHMorgan: That said, WHATEVER you can get mom to eat is good the first week - but the closest to her natural diet the better - dogfood is generaly a complete nutrition - I just add extra protein and fat sources like dairy, eggs and meats
PHMorgan: Aha - that can happen
PHMorgan: I find iwth large litters momdog will eat a LOT of small meals
PHMorgan: OFfer her food 4-5 times a day instead of 1-2
PHMorgan: Again - try for her normal kibble but you can add proteins and diary products
PHMowgli: well with my large litter Violet ate constantly last 2 weeks
dl_pap: yeah i am... but having to guild the lily with a tsp. of cat food
PHMorgan: With her litter of 10, Z ate about 6 small meals a day. I had to have a neighbor come in and feed her at noon because she could nto wait all day.... LOL
PHMorgan: Pap - that is OK!
PHMorgan: So long as she is eating
dl_pap: but have been concerned about the calcium
PHMorgan: Remember her tummy area has been taken over by some hopefully very active little alien bodies.... LOL
dl_pap: she doesn't seem to like dairy
PHMorgan: Try adding powdered goat's milk to her food as if it was parmesan cheese
dl_pap: except cheddar.. she'll eat cheddar
PHMowgli: pap like christy said you can have a calicium level ran on her at vets to see if she is in normal range
PHMorgan: Give her taht then
PHChristy: cheddar is good
dl_pap: i'll do that
PHChristy: I'm not actually concerned about sodium intake in healthy dogs
PHChristy: so I use cheese liberally
PHMorgan: OK - also the first few hours it's important NOT to have a ton of visitors -we discussed keeping momdog's stress levels down
PHMorgan: Even if the WHOLE FAMILY and ALL your friends know pups are coming - tell them they will have to be content with photos for at least the first 2 weeks
PHMorgan: Often cheese is the only thing I can get momdog to eat th efirst day or so
dl_pap: good to know
PHMorgan: But I also will make a nice slurry of raw eggs, kayro syrup, goat's milk and water for momdog - usually she will eat that and then I will add kibble over time
PHMowgli: morgan I used to have that problem now first day my girls eat pureed liver with yogurt and goats milk it is blended to be like a shake and they love it and eat it right up
weremon13_nr: hey all
PHChristy: Hi again weremon! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!
PHMorgan: Sounds good Mow - I will add pureed liver to my recipe.... ALL my guys LOVE liver
weremon13_nr: did I talk to any of you in the exotic chat last night?
PHMorgan: And I do give liver to preggo moms
PHChristy: Tonight's topic is immediate post whelping care!
dl_pap: raw liver?
weremon13_nr: thank you Christ
PHMowgli: i use raw yes
FasdogKira: Hi weremon!
PHMowgli: but i know others who boil it first
PHMorgan: I will use raw or cooke d- *I prefer cooked but I'm a germ freak
weremon13_nr: how are you fasdog
PHChristy: I don't give anything to puppies, but I feed raw to moms
weremon13_nr: I remember you
FasdogKira: weremon, I'm fine!
PHMorgan: No - none for baby dogs
dl_pap: sounds yummy!
PHMowgli: I prefer cooked too morgan but the girls prefer raw and eat it better LOL
weremon13_nr: this is the same fasdog, correct?
VAL911K9: seems like with mine the more disgusting and smelly the better they like it so I use raw
PHMorgan: OK - I propose next week we talk about the first week of puppy's life - this sound OK? I konw we talked about it a few months ago, but it seems the right time to do it again..... Whadayathink?
PHChristy: LOL Val
PHMowgli: how old are yur pups before you add in goats milk or another protein source to their diets?
PHChristy: sounds good, I have some info on that to share also.... about improving neonatal survival
PHMowgli: works for me morgan
PHMorgan: Mow - if momdog doesn't have enough milk, I will use goat's milk, diluted by 50% with water even the first day
PHChristy: did you know that 30 percent of all puppies and kittens do not survive their first week?
PHMowgli: no I did not know that
PHMorgan: OFten I will add some yogurt (not much) and some kayro syrup (again, not a lot) to the goat's milk
PHMorgan: NO way
PHChristy: I like to think that we, as careful breeders, have better rates than that, but it does underscore how hazardous the early days can be
PHMorgan: I've never lost one
PHMorgan: KNock wood
PHMorgan: (bangs on Z"s head)
PHMowgli: I have lost 2 pups so far both to pda
PHChristy: well, you're a cut above the average, Morgan
PHMorgan: I've been extremely lucky, have had extremely hearty pups and great momdogs
PHChristy: I think the whole point is we all want above average results
PHChristy: that's why we are here
PHMorgan: But I particularly chose lines that whelped easily and were good mothers. Also a hearty breed
PHChristy: that's important, because Dr. Hutch says that problems during delivery are the leading cause of neonatal deaths
PHChristy: so having easy whelpers is critical
PHMowgli: yes breeds vary as do congenital defects that can be born in and those are problems too
PHMowgli: toy breeds are more susceptible to congenital defects from my reading
dl_pap: what about dew claws?
dl_pap: at birth or later?
PHMorgan: We will go over that stuff next week- there is a LOT that goes on the first week
PHMowgli: I have dwe claws removed t 3-5 days
PHChristy: Thank you everyone for being with us for Dog Breeding Chat this week, we're now entering part two of our DogHobbyist Doubleheader.... Welcome to Showdog Chat with your host, PHMowgli!